gurdymonkey | The Title Wank

The Title Wank

I am writing this here so as not to hijack a thread in someone else's journal. It's going to ramble and may not be completely germane to the discussion over there anyway.

"(Pang?) Six out of ten Westerners will call me Jehanne if I'm dressed as Saionji, two will remember to call me Makiwara (and one of them will mispronounce it), and the other two will say, "I'm sorry, what's your Japanese name again?"

(Pang?) I got called by my Japanese name, mostly pronounced correctly and with appropriate honorifics on a regular basis for four and a half days. (You have no idea what a novelty this is....)" (LJ entry of 2/28/08)

Think back into the mists of time, O My Readers of SCA origins. Try to remember how you felt the first time someone addressed you as "My Lady" or "My Lord." Did you come to the SCA because there is some part of you that is a shameless romantic? Did you feel, as this writer did, that you had found a haven? Did you feel special? Did you lose the power of speech the first time you were summoned before your monarchs and given the right to style yourself "Lady/Lord _____________?"

If you are a Westerner, I do hope you enjoyed it because after the herald led the cheer for your AoA, it may be the last time you heard yourself called "Lady/Lord _____________" It is the Way of Things (TM) here, primarily because the West is the first kingdom and you can't swing a peer without hitting a dead cat and the local culture deals with it by crying, "Nonono, just call me __________!"

What of the "Nonono, just call me __________!" people who continue to wear the bling that goes with their earned achievements even as they're insisting on being Just Folks. Does this send a mixed message?

What about the members of the population who stay at AoA level?

What does this do to the culture of the kingdom? Does this diminish the experience of going to an event and being larger than life and romantic for a few hours of one's week? Does this result in less courteous behavior? Does it kill the magic?

Contrast this with the following. Japanese culture is all about the honorifics, so those who choose to portray Japanese personae quickly learn the appropriate ones and use them. All the time. I'm always "Saionji-hime" or "Makiwara-hime" online, and sometimes "-sensei" as well. Last spring I was Saionji-hime whether I was pounding tent stakes in t-shirt and tatsukebakama or pouring sake in my prettiest wafuku or staggering to the privy with uncombed hair first thing in the morning or stirring soba over a camp stove. Some of these people I've known long enough they should be calling me Hanae-hime, but they won't because that's too intimate! And "my" boys are always ___________-dono. Always.

I know which I prefer.

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I know that I prefer to use honorifics, especially since it is my observation that (small w) westerners are a scruffy, uncouth lot.

This is also affected by being around a lot of modern-day Turks, who routinely refer to others (especially elders and teachers) as male name bey, or female name hanim.

As you know, I find it very amusing to use my (adopted) culture's honorifics with your heathen culture's outlandish names - Makiwara hanim...

Hai, Iskanderu-dono.

We talk a bit around here about "going in stealth mode" just to get things done.

I don't usually wear any of my bling unless I'm in court to honor someone else. You look silly wearing a coronet while rolling out pie crusts and that's where you usually find me unless I'm teaching something. You won't find me wearing my bling then either.

I think after spending a year always having to wear something on my head I am relishing not having to be out in front.

When I sign some piece of email, it's usually "Rowan B." People who know me, know me- and those who treat anyone badly because of a lack of title next to a name, show their ass publicly and well, then you know where they stand. :)

I haven't been privileged to see you at event dressed as anything other than Jehanne. If I had, I'd use the name _and_ honorific you gave me to use*, and would use them together because in Japan it is _part_ of the name in a way that titles in Europe aren't. When I lived in Japan (we left when I was 3 1/2) no one _ever_ left the -chan off of my name.

However, I don't see a problem with leaving titles off of European names in casual conversation with friends--I am far more likely to use a title if I *don't know* a person's name. I will use titles when I introduce people *if* both parties have a title, because it bothers me when someone introduces me with a title and doesn't give me the title of the person to whom I'm being introduced.

*(Sorry, but I don't know which name is correct for you, Saionji-hime, or Makiwara-hime, I know that you are called both, but I don't know why two different names are used, or what your full Japanese name is)

"When I lived in Japan (we left when I was 3 1/2) no one _ever_ left the -chan off of my name. "

Of course not. Even to a toddler, one must not be rude. ;-D

Makiwara is a nickname I went by when I first started doing Japanese. (I had been influenced by two friends back east and swiped elements of their persona names: FujiMAKI and FujiWARA to create a rather dreadful pun - a makiwara is an archery target.)

When I finally selected a name, I chose Saionji no Hanae. The Saionji were an aristocratic family at the Imperial Court in the 1200s. Hanae is (a) close to Jehanne (even though nobody addresses me by it!), and (b) Hana is the name of the daughter of the man who got me into the SCA in the first place. Hana means "flower", Hanae means "flower of the bay".

How close would a friend have to be to address you with "Hanae" instead of your family name? Does that level of intimacy still use an honorific? Does the choice of what word used after the name change for that level of intimacy? Mom used to tell folks that "chan" was a "term of endearment" for children, is there a term used for very close friends instead of a title of rank? Do you feel that any of your friends are that close?

I think "-chan" is a diminutive of the modern "-san" and I honestly don't know what the period equivalent for the diminutive would be. Given that "-san/chan" are used even to family members, I would guess that the only time one would drop the honorific is in private - or from a social superior to an inferior in a situation in which the superior feels the need to pull rank by being deliberately rude.

"Personal name - honorific" is appropriate from family or close friends in an informal situation. I have signed notes to certain friends as "Hanae", indicating that I would be comfortable with their so addressing me. (Only one has taken the hint.) As for my Western friends, they have enough trouble keeping my names straight.

The other thing I should mention is that in period, it was considered more polite to refer to someone by a title or nickname than be so presumptuous as to use their name. You might, for instance, refer to me as The Lady Who Lives In The Green House. It's one of the reasons that documenting women's names in period is so difficult.

I did bring this up once on the JML as to whether SCA Japanese overdo the title and honorific thing in practice. The consensus was that we don't.

Something that also ought to be kept in mind (although it is difficult to do in English) is that the Japanese language itself changes depending on who you are talking to, not just the titles used. This is usually done by altering the form of the verb, although in some cases, even different vocabulary is used. It's one of the more difficult things for English-speakers to grasp when learning the language: not the forms themselves, but when to use them and with whom.

English just doesn't do this. We used to have a second-person familiar form (thou and the verb structures that went with it), but that fell out of usage centuries ago.

One of the fun things to watch for in Japanese drama is the moment when people change the way they address one another. Big emotional impact there--in that moment, a wall comes down (or goes up). It's subtle and beautiful.

You're correct - there isn't really a way to do this in English. At least not verbally.

True story, which you may or may not have already heard. I met The Rocky Mountain Bushi in person at Estrella several years ago. I was in western dress at the time and our interaction was immediate zero-to-lifelong-friend-in-three-seconds. I had introduced myself using my Japanese name despite my dress, there was bowing and no touching (despite the fact that SCADians can be a huggy lot). I was in western dress the second time we ran into each other and he invited me into his camp for a drink and what turned out to be an evening out of the rain. Friendly, cordial, as if we'd known each other forever.

Meeting three I was in the red "shoot me" kosode and veiled hat - and he instantly began to behave as if he was my retainer. I found myself standing up a little straighter and being a bit more formal as well. It was subtle, but it was definitely there. If one compares our SCA careers, he outranks me. If one compares our persona stories, I outrank him - and he was determined to play with it. Pretty cool, neh?

So would I address you as "SIGH-on-jee-hee-may"?

That bowing business, though -- I dunno. I'm likely to stick with the Western style; seems more dignified to me -- by my lights, sticking one's rear end out does not show any deference to speak of...

(But then, I'm an ignorant round-eye...;)

Pretty close. Sigh-own-jee hee-meh.
A = ah, AI = eye ah-ee), AE = aye (ah-eh)
E = eh. EI = ay as in "say"
I = ee.
O = oh.
U = oo as in "boot" (U is sometimes silent, and half the time I read something in Romaji and can't be sure if it's a silent u or not.)

One makes one's greetings as is appropriate to one's station, of course. ;-D

One does, however, find oneself resigned to the scandalous namban custom of being touched in public. The SCA are a huggy lot....

If I every get involved in this sort of thing and need to create an SCA persona, I'm thinking my personal name would probably be:

Yukiyo (if persona is female = "Happy Generation")
Yukio (if persona is male = "Happy Man")

I already have a performance art persona (for a Butler Café, which currently is in operation about once a year) whose given name is Yukio; I likes it. :)

(... As for a potential family name, I dunno yet. The Café Verführen investor is a 3/4 Brit dude whose family name is Yoshida - which is terribly plebian, but he's a modern business tycoon...)

I looked and the surname Yoshida existed during our period, as did the name elements you listed, so Yoshida Yukiyo/Yukio could work:
http://www.sengokudaimyo.com/miscellany/names.html

Or you can always play with this and see if it spits out anything you like.
http://www.rhinohide.cx/tousando/name/name.html

There's part of me that agrees that "Nonono, just call me ___!" kills the magic, but then another, less-worthy part of me likes it, only because I know it is unlikely that I'll get above AOA-rank, despite the long time I've been involved with the SCA. I've been in long enough that a lot of people that I started with are now peers.

Back when I lived in the Midrealm, it was a sign that you really knew a person well when you could call them by their real name (not at an event, of course). In Calontir, it's very different--people I've known for years don't know my real name. It's always "Tace" (they never can remember the Japanese one).

I do like the Japanese model, though. It's more elegant, I think.

I really-o truely-o am trying to be better about this. I try to use titles when "hosting" or introducing people.

I would love it if people were introduced with their full SCA names. I think that's a formality I could live with, too.

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The Title Wank

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Probably more than you needed to know.

Re: Probably more than you needed to know.

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Re: Probably more than you needed to know.

Re: Probably more than you needed to know.

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You'd be good to go if you did.

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